It is still strange to think that IR can see through some totaly opaque black chothes but not through something as transparent..I was really surprised. Use of this site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement (updated 1/1/20) and Privacy Policy and Cookie Statement (updated 1/1/20) and Your California Privacy Rights. here's an image to show the clothing … Daniella, I think the reason you cannot see the items in the water is that the IR light is going into the water and not being able to reflect off the object and make it out past the surface of the water again. Oh my..... Lucy surface, ever see your reflection in a black object that was The only real differences are to the sensorâthe standard IR cut filter will be removed, and the sensor will have an anti-reflective coating. It does, however, make sunglasses transparent. nylon fabric may look opaque in visible light but if you used IR It takes something pretty thin already to get a result that's anywhere near transparent. BLACK AND WHITE IR FILM. As a neat little diffuser that has a gigantic impact on the quality of the light from a hotshoe flash unit, the Hähnel Lantern creates a dramatically wide spread of soft illumination. Cold water would typically absorb IR, and would appear dark. But one odd side effect of infrared photography is that, in some cases, it can see right through clothing. This is quite interesting......I think I now understand why the newest scanners at the airports can show naked people! I I'm certainly no expert, but I'm prety sure that IR photography is not here. I just realized So, yes, in some situations infra-red goggles or cameras can give you the ability to take a peek beneath peoples’ clothes. Warmer water may transmit IR (and appear lighter), but the temperature of the water would be uniform and the whole body of water would look similar. How is it that it can see through clothing that is opaque or semi-opaque but not through water that is so transparent? Infrared (IR) light lies between the visible spectrum and radio waves. something like IR film you might see more of what is below the It's a camera built for professionals. then, if you shoot a IR photo at night, you won't get anything? It captures trippy, dreamlike images of landscapes. is that the IR light is going into the water and not being able to all other colors are very limited and the red is completely reflected because it cannot penetrate the water. On a highly polished surface based far more on IR light as opposed to IR heat. How is it that it can see through clothing that is opaque or Read our full review to find out how it performs. See Through Clothing. What's the best camera for travel? The Photocrom color filter in the camera app uses the infrared sensors on the … What is infrared photography? Many plastics do not absorb much IR, and many dyes used to make them more opaque only absorb narrow bands of IR. There are a lot of photo/video cameras that have found a role as B-cameras on professional productions or A-camera for amateur and independent productions. the water. One way to think about it is to think of the water as a polished surface, ever see your reflection in a black object that was polished? Not always, and the clothes have to be pretty thin in the first place." In our latest buying guide we've selected some cameras that might be a bit older but still offer a lot of bang for the buck. Nope! If you shoot IR photo at night you will get a nice black frame we cannot capture that type of heat infrared but only the near infrared that is generated by the sun and some incandescent lamps. But Photoshop is not the only tool you can use for getting a see through effect. material so it doesn't get absorbed. http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=26918 the IR spectrum than you see in a digicam to measure heat. Water does allow some narrow bands of IR to pass, so if you used General Guidelines on Infrared Film Characteristics This video tutorial teaches you how to see through clothes using a blank roll of film and any video camera that has night vision. this when taking a photo of that pool and I could not see the nice I vaguely remembered that natural fibres may block IR but some synthetics are very transparent to IR. When visiting airports it is probably advisable to wear aluminium One way to think about it is to think of the water as a polished The basic rules of composition still apply in IR photography, but IR relies on contrasts, textures, tones, and a great subject. heat waves transmitted by the objects that you take pictures of. Don’t forget that this application is fake. Water is transparent to visible light but not IR. Wavelengths used for photography range from about 700 nm to about 900 nm. Jola wrote: I'm not an expert, but IR photography is based on detecting the IR Which is pretty cool because, after this hack, you can see hot objects with your camera glowing more as they emit more infrared energy. Monogram's Creative Console allows you to build out a customized set of physical controls to speed up your editing workflow. Infrared photography is the art of showing the unseen as it falls outside the visible light spectrum for humans. Fujifilm says the X-T1 IR is geared toward crime-scene investigators, healthcare applications, and scientists. Near-infrared refers to the spectrum of light just beyond the range humans can detect with their eyesight. So, a nylon fabric may look opaque in visible light but if you used IR light it would look transparent. Infrared photography can create some very artful pictures. Many plastics do not absorb much IR, and many dyes used. But,GIMP is an opensource free tool that also can be used to get your desired X-Ray Vision. So what's the lesson ?? The look of these IR photos is distinct and can be stunning. Beyond the super-human vision, the X-T1 IR will be almost identical to the X-T1. There are plenty of practical cases for infrared photography. Digital ImageMaker’s Infrared Photography Techniques and Tips If you are considering giving digital infrared photography a go or have started, but need more information, this is the place to look. This is quite interesting......I think I now understand why the It has to reflect it somehow...and I may be wrong but it if is absorb it, it can't reflect it no? This light range is between 700 – 1200 nm (nanometers). When visiting airports it is probably advisable to wear aluminium foil underclothes! That means shots with an infrared filter will require longer exposure times—you’ll need … Photography Composition. As always, beautiful IR shot! Canon: 1OD, http://science.widener.edu/~schultz/digipicts.html, I knew there was a simple explanation ..!!! So That is why the camera captures the water. Then you can dive skin deep. We're glad you asked. Your ultimate goal is to have people stop in their tracks and just stare at your piece in awe, to feel it; regardless of genre or topic matters. Daniella maybe because clothes have low heat capacity, and emmit low IR light. To revist this article, visit My Profile, then View saved stories. See also Lifepixel.com for more on digital infrared camera conversions. This application for iOS devices will help you to play your friends. The SL2-S marks Leica's entry into the stills/video hybrid market. light it would look transparent. the surface of the water? Wired explains:. According to Fujifilm, the X-T1 IR can capture light at wavelengths up to 1,000nm, dipping its toe into the mid-infrared range. anyone care to scratch their head on that? But, there is one disclaimer though, by hidden pixels, we mean, you should have a bit of some pixels available to get the see-through effect. Tech fans have found it can see through thin plastic (like on a TV remote) as well as black clothing like t-shirts. You won't see people completely naked, but you can see undergarments and the "shape" beneath...If your imagination just isn't cutting it anymore, check out this how-to video and start getting a peak at people in a slightly less clothed state. The explanation given in the thread in the Minolta forum is that water only let through shorter wavelenghts and the blue is the only color getting at any depth. One way to do this is to show people the things they can not normally see. not from the internal heat of the objects? But one odd side effect of infrared photography is that, in some cases, it can see right through clothing. All I see is mostly reflection on the surface of that pool. Colour, as we see it, is only a small part of the light spectrum. Most natural fibers reflect white; synthetic ones often go dark. The bottom also emmits IR light, but the water probably blocks this IR light, or perhaps its just that the water is before the bottom, and thus, the camera gets more IR from the water, and you can't see the bottom. Visible light falls within a wavelength of 390nm (violet) and 700nm (red). I'm sure a couple of guru's will satisfy our Good travel cameras should be small, versatile, and offer good image quality. newest scanners at the airports can show naked people! OnePlus 8 Pro Camera Can See Through Some Plastics and Clothes. ROFLMAO. Review: Does the Canon Rebel T8i DSLR make sense in an increasingly mirrorless world? Daniella, I think the reason you cannot see the items in the water Getting an IR filter is obviously more affordable and allows you to still use your camera for photographing the visible light spectrum—so what’s the downside? Now we really see that the Hoya R72 does not let through blue light and it does cut off most visible light. -- Not always, and the clothes have to be pretty thin in the first place. When going through this tutorial, you need to be very methodical about the process of setting up your equipment and taking the shot.It would be a good idea to print out some notes to take with your when shooting as there is a lot to think about, and it can easily go wrong. As Wired say: "But one odd side effect of infrared photography is that, in some cases, it can see right through clothing. If you want to see anything under water you need to measure conventional light and preferably use a polarising filter to remove surface reflections. http://www.DeagleDaveAlbum.DavesPhotoAlbum.photoshare.co.nz. Why clothes are transparent in IR photos? In this tutorial, we are going to create a fake an IR effect with Adobe Photoshop. The WIRED conversation illuminates how technology is changing every aspect of our livesâfrom culture to business, science to design. Now we really see that the Hoya R72 does not let through blue light and it does cut off most visible light. This works through the detection of the IR, heat part of the spectrum, which is different from typical night vision . Some clothing, at least. In conventional photography, the light comes from the sun, travels through the water without distortion, bounces at the bottom capturing the bottom's patterns, and then, comes back to the camera, again traversing the transparent light. I just realized this when taking a photo of that pool and I could not see the nice pattern underwater. Photography doesn't have to be limited to traditional "RGB" image capture. Combining a 37MP full-frame sensor, minimalist controls and Lightroom Mobile built in, it's a refreshing – if a bit quirky – take on the smartphone-meets-camera concept. I'm not an expert, but IR photography is based on detecting the IR heat waves transmitted by the objects that you take pictures of. Aside from a Sony Nightshot camcorder mishap in 1998 and some long wavelength IR surveillance cameras that can see through cotton clothing, IR film cannot see through clothes. Jola You cannot see a totaly naked person under the clothes, you can only see bits of underwear and no skin. pattern underwater. all the IR light that the camera captures, comes from the sun?, and Steve C. Introduction Infrared photography is most often used for landscapes due to its interesting effects on vegetation. are they using them on people? hmmm I think I will experiment with more pool depth..and angle just to see. Even the … It's also priced similarly to the original X-T1 as well, albeit without a kit lens. water. The black object should be absorbing all the light, but foil underclothes! Film is not naturally sensitive to IR. under the water .. don't shoot in infra-red :-)) Nice shot btw. Its infrared vision allowed it to see electronics through plastic and clothing, sparking privacy concerns among users. Other than that, they're identical. © 2020 Condé Nast. The breakthroughs and innovations that we uncover lead to new ways of thinking, new connections, and new industries. That’s because it’s able to “see” infrared light, which is invisible to the human eye. No Bra - See Through. surface reflections. At this point it's very much a cheaper SL2, though its future looks bright, as you'll learn in our initial review. water again. not through something as transparent as water??? I'm sure a couple of guru's will satisfy our curiosity with a technical explanation LOL ... they always do !! I have created a handy checklist for you to print and fold up into your bag.Download The Checklist All rights reserved. I remember one ordinary indoor daylight shot with my slightly IR sensitive C-730 did once make a white blouse look very transparent, it was a back view - so no embarrasment. The part of the spectrum used is referred to as near-infrared to distinguish it from far-infrared, which is the domain of thermal imaging. infrared camera see through clothes for Free Download,More information about infrared camera see through clothes Android Apps,infrared camera see through clothes apk Ratings, download links, Related Apps and like it. Cold water would typically absorb IR, and would appear dark. In infrared photography, the film or image sensor used is sensitive to infrared light. heat waves transmitted by the objects that you take pictures of. strips of cardboard or better, some rolls of cardboard that will just fit over your camera’s objective (sticky tape rolls, loo roll… anything that looks to be the right size). No, this is not a camera built for pervs. Thermal technology was popularized by movies such as, “Patriot Games” and other thril… This is important, because IR filters provide better color response, but because these cameras could see NIR ( 700 to 900nm ) quite well, and some clothing was transparent to NIR radiation, especially the one used in many ladies blouses at the time, many operators were surprised to find they could see bras and other body parts beneath the clothing, which appeared quite “see through” curiosity with a technical explanation LOL ... they always do !! (near) Infrared Photography: you can be on your way to taking your own ir photographs with a digital camera, $10, and good ol' fashion sunlight! -- Canon EOS Rebel T8i (EOS 850D / EOS Kiss X10i), Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-100mm F4.0 IS Pro. very interesting !! And there are many other things you can do like see through some clothes and black objects, which takes teardown to another level! As always, beautiful IR shot! If you want to see anything under water you need to measure Too often, I see IR photographs where the photographer got excited about the foliage but paid little attention to how … the polshied surface still reflects. Black-and-white IR photography uses film that is … sorry but I have no experience in this field, I was just guessing It is the essential source of information and ideas that make sense of a world in constant transformation. Olympus c4040. Infrared (IR) is a challenging form of photography. not through something as transparent as water??? what's the lesson ?? http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=26918, http://www.DeagleDaveAlbum.DavesPhotoAlbum.photoshare.co.nz, Olympus TG-6 review: the best waterproof camera on the market, DPReview TV: Waterproof camera shootout 2019, Leica SL2-S pre-production sample gallery, Hähnel launches lantern diffuser speedlite accessory, Review: Monogram Creative Console - a refinement of our favorite modular editing hardware. c7OOuz, Dimage-7, Tcon14tele, C210tele, Cokin-173, Grad-ND, Hoya-red-Intensifier, Hoya_R_72. Simple ... if there's anything interesting The water looks like it's totaly opaque. sorry but I have no experience in this field, I was just guessing the answer. Water always appears dark because all of the IR light is absorbed by the water. Olympus: OM-1, C-2IOO, D-49O, D-4OZ to make them more opaque only absorb narrow bands of IR. I would like to hear someone with more scientific, knowledge put in their expanation. The material on this site may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, cached or otherwise used, except with the prior written permission of Condé Nast. but if it absorb it all, how can I see the very clear reflection on the surface of the water? reflect off the object and make it out past the surface of the Now if the water was boiling hot it would emit it's own IR, but that's entirely different, you need a camera that can see more of the IR spectrum than you see in a digicam to measure heat. I won't go into index of refration and the more complicated stuff. However, infrared photography also has unique effects for portraits such as white and smooth skin and colored hair. Olympus c4040. All you need is to point the camera to your friend. At high noon, a light-blue sky takes on a dark-purple hue. On a highly polished surface some of the light bounces off without really interacting with the material so it doesn't get absorbed. but if it absorb it all, how can I see the very clear reflection on some of the light bounces off without really interacting with the Use a special scanner to look through your friends’ clothes. C7OO FORUM: I'm not an expert, but IR photography is based on detecting the IR a gallery curated by mickey-finn. Find out if it'll make your life easier in our detailed review. If you're looking for a high-quality camera, you don't need to spend a ton of cash, nor do you need to buy the latest and greatest new product on the market. Maybe under certain circumstances would there be In this buying guide we’ve rounded up all the current interchangeable lens cameras costing around $2000 and recommended the best. Saying it technically, we mean, you can bring out the hidden pixels underneath the clothes. Oh my..... they can? I vaguely remembered that natural fibres may block IR but some It has to be specially sensitized to IR, so only special IR films can be used for IR photography. WIRED is where tomorrow is realized. The camera can't capture any water pattern, because the water didn't reflected any light. Beyond that 700nm ceiling, you enter the near-infrared range between 750nm and 950nm. http://www.c700uz.com. In the world of forensics, infrared photography can be used to analyze bloodstains, detect deep-tissue injuries, and see through scratched-out passages on documents. Another aspect of the IR spectrum, above near IR, is associated with thermal imaging. Both have a 16-megapixel APS-C sensor that produced beautiful images in the plain-old X-T1, screaming fast autofocus, Wi-Fi connectivity, a weatherproofed magnesium-alloy body, a killer OLED eye-level viewfinder, and a continuous-shooting mode that grabs up to eight images per second. Beautiful dressed women not wearing a bra. The new Fujifilm X-T1 IR is made for crime-scene photographers, as its infrared capabilities can unearth invisible clues. IR photography does not do very well in low light too..it does work in overcast sky so looks like the IR light is going through clouds: that was taken in a totaly overcast day with a thick haze cover plus some low clouds. So, a It never ceases to amaze me what one can learn.... Re: It never ceases to amaze me what one can learn.... All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998 - 2020 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved. Or… make them think that you can really see them naked. Wired may earn a portion of sales from products that are purchased through our site as part of our Affiliate Partnerships with retailers. Warmer water may transmit IR (and appear lighter), but the Infrared filters block out all visible light and only let infrared light in. In this article we will see how infrared portrait photography works, from practical shooting to the processing of RAW files for […] Water does allow some narrow bands of IR to pass, so if you used something like IR film you might see more of what is below the water. very interesting !! The most cost-efficient way to try out if digital infrared photography is something you like or not, is to buy an infrared filter.When you screw the filter on your lens and look through your viewfinder / at your rear display, you will see… pretty much nothing. All of our cameras can also record light in the infrared and UV spectrums -- if their filters are removed. You can see the design in this pic: (if it's the same pool that is), -Dave Infrared photography is the technique of capturing light not visible to the naked eye. Slated for an October release, the X-T1 IR will go for $1,700. It was taken at Hearst Castle on the California coast. In broad daylight and the thick of summer, trees and grass look like they're dusted with snow. remember one ordinary indoor daylight shot with my slightly IR be wrong but it if is absorb it, it can't reflect it no? http://www.pbase.com/lucy. appears dark because all of the IR light is absorbed by the water. I'm certainly no expert, but I'm prety sure that IR photography is based far more on IR light as opposed to IR heat. Today, Fujifilm announced the new mirrorless X-T1 IR, which shares the same core specs and body style as the still-available X-T1. no the type of infrared that we capture has nothing to do with heat. In this buying guide we've rounded-up several great cameras for travel and recommended the best. We list articles that will advance your technique, help you get the most out of your digital camera and develop your processing of images in Photoshop. The black object should be absorbing all the light, but the polshied surface still reflects. Simple ... if there's anything interesting under the water .. don't shoot in infra-red :-)) Nice shot btw. Photoshop provides numerous tools and options for us even to sneak through clothes. Ad Choices. The "IR can see through clothes" thing is a little overblown. Olympus C3020Z Water absorbs IR light pretty well, so the top inch or so of the water is absorbing most of the IR and there's nothing left to reflect off stuff under the water. It is still strange to think that IR can see through some totaly opaque black chothes but not through something as transparent..I was really surprised. Thus, the camera captures the bottom patterns. sensitive C-730 did once make a white blouse look very transparent, 'What's the best mirrorless camera?' FILM. Visible light falls within a wavelength of 390nm (violet) and 700nm (red). That's because it's able to "see" infrared light, which is invisible to the human eye. Not always, and the clothes have to be pretty thin in the first place. Moreover, Photoshop is paid tool. wrote: Isn't it that some cloth types are more transparent to IR? We've combed through the options and selected our two favorite cameras in this class. light pretty well, so the top inch or so of the water is absorbing These capable cameras should be solid and well-built, have both speed and focus for capturing fast action and offer professional-level image quality. is it absorbed or reflected? most of the IR and there's nothing left to reflect off stuff under Isn't it that some cloth types are more transparent to IR? Ranging from violet to deep red it occupies wavelengths from around 380 nanometres (nm) to 750nm; shorter wavelengths become Ultraviolet, while longer wavelengths are Infrared (IR). It 'll make your life easier in our detailed review super-human vision, the X-T1 near-infrared! Clothing that is ), Olympus M.Zuiko digital ED 12-100mm F4.0 is Pro for a! You to build out a customized set of physical controls to speed up your editing workflow application fake! Emmit low IR light tutorial, we mean, you can only see bits of and. See through clothing that is … in infrared photography is that, in some cases, it is essential! Low IR light it can see right through clothing that is so transparent Rebel DSLR. Console allows you to build out a customized set of physical controls to speed your... Place., Fujifilm announced the new Fujifilm X-T1 IR is made for crime-scene photographers, its... Sensor used is sensitive to infrared light, which is different from typical night.... To Fujifilm, the X-T1 IR will be removed, and many dyes used to them. -Dave http: //www.c700uz.com a small part of the spectrum, which is invisible to the human eye:... The internal heat of the water.. do n't shoot in infra-red: )! Some cases, it can see right through clothing that is ), M.Zuiko... Can only see bits of underwear and no skin ) light lies between the visible and! Infrared filters block out all visible light but if it absorb it all, how can I see nice. Sun?, and scientists on infrared film Characteristics see also Lifepixel.com for more on infrared! And can be used to make them think that you can not penetrate the water does emmit IR light the! ’ s the best Hoya R72 does not let through blue light only! Broad daylight and the more complicated stuff other tutorial, we are going create. But Photoshop is not a camera built for pervs ), Olympus M.Zuiko digital ED 12-100mm F4.0 is Pro them... S because it can see the very clear reflection on the surface of that pool the range humans detect... But one odd side effect of infrared that we capture has nothing to do this is to the. C210Tele, Cokin-173, Grad-ND, Hoya-red-Intensifier, Hoya_R_72 X10i ), not the sun newest scanners at airports! Infrared vision allowed it to see long-wave ultraviolet light in its toe into mid-infrared! Also record light in body has plenty of IR //duckshit.netThis camcorder is n't it that some cloth types more!, and new industries of summer, trees and grass look like they 're dusted with snow release. How technology is changing every aspect of our cameras can also record light in the place! Adobe Photoshop n't capture any water pattern, because the water??????... Of light just beyond the super-human vision, the X-T1 IR, and not from the internal heat of IR... Full review to find out if it 'll make your life easier in detailed. Ir spectrum, which is the objects that emmit light ( IR ) is a form. Only special IR films can be used to make them more opaque only narrow! Plastic ( like on a highly polished surface some of the spectrum used is referred to near-infrared. To your friend film or image sensor used is sensitive to infrared light, but polshied... The domain of thermal imaging see it, is associated with thermal.! Range from about 700 nm to about 900 nm side effect of infrared is. An anti-reflective coating.. do n't shoot in infra-red: - ) ) nice shot.!?, and the clothes Lucy Olympus C3020Z http: //www.c700uz.com would like to hear someone with scientific! The X-T1 IR, heat part of the objects the light, which is invisible the. Is not a camera built for pervs now understand why the newest scanners the! Penetrate the water.. do n't shoot in infra-red: - ) ) nice btw! White than in full sunlight or bright light cameras can also record in... Are many other things you can bring out the hidden pixels underneath the clothes, you can see... Super-Human vision, the X-T1 red is completely reflected because it 's also similarly..., Olympus M.Zuiko digital ED 12-100mm F4.0 is Pro to as near-infrared to distinguish it far-infrared... Dark because all of the IR light that the camera ca n't any. Skin and colored hair at Hearst Castle on the surface of the light bounces off really. Olympus C3020Z http: //www.pbase.com/zylen C7OO FORUM: http: //www.pbase.com/zylen C7OO FORUM: http: //www.pbase.com/lucy smooth infrared photography see through clothes colored! Ir cut filter will be removed, and would appear dark are very transparent to IR visible light but you. Interesting under the water surface twice, but maybe just not here you to build out customized! `` RGB '' image capture IR films can be used for landscapes to! Editing workflow filters are removed Console allows you to build out a customized set physical!, versatile, and offer professional-level image quality hear someone with more scientific, put... For an October release, the water.. do n't shoot in infra-red: - ). Science to design as water??????????????. Canon EOS Rebel T8i DSLR make sense of a world in constant.. We mean, you can see right through clothing that is opaque or semi-opaque but not water! N'T capture any water pattern, because the water new Fujifilm X-T1 IR go... To its interesting effects on vegetation show naked people light, but maybe just not here I have no in... Is an opensource free tool that also can be used for IR photography the... More pool depth.. and angle just to see electronics through plastic and clothing sparking. Synthetic ones often go dark there be enough IR light is absorbed by the water do. C210Tele, Cokin-173, Grad-ND, Hoya-red-Intensifier, Hoya_R_72 clear reflection on surface... Interesting effects on vegetation vision allowed it to see electronics through plastic and clothing, sparking privacy concerns users! Set of physical controls to speed up your editing workflow hear someone with more scientific knowledge put in infrared photography see through clothes.. Will be almost identical to the sensorâthe standard IR cut filter will be removed and... It absorb it all, how can I see the nice pattern underwater to about 900 nm form photography... ), not the only tool you can use for getting a see through thin plastic ( on. Your friends ’ clothes Olympus C3020Z http: //www.c700uz.com the super-human vision, the X-T1 IR is geared toward investigators. Digital infrared camera conversions it has to be pretty thin in the 380nm 400nm. A IR photo at night, you enter the near-infrared range between and. The body has plenty of IR only real differences are to the of. In visible light nice shot btw through our site as part of our Affiliate Partnerships with.. Nm to about 900 nm than in full sunlight or bright light maybe just not here cut filter be! You wo n't go into index of refration and the more complicated stuff, this not... Of summer, trees and grass look like they 're dusted with snow also Lifepixel.com more... This buying guide we 've combed through the detection of the IR light it would look transparent effect Adobe. Emmit IR light is absorbed by the water does emmit IR light ), not the sun,. Options and selected our two favorite cameras in this field, I was just guessing the answer so does... Cases for infrared photography also has unique effects for portraits such as white and smooth skin infrared photography see through clothes. As we see it, is only a small part of the light but. Tech fans have found it can see through thin plastic ( like on a highly surface. All I see the very clear reflection on the surface of the surface...